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Ben Stein Vs. Darwin |
Octaman and the BIBLE
VS. Trinitarian Ideology HOW THE "TRINITY" POISONS THE
PURITY OF
THE DIVINE PLAN
Let me start by laying the foundation. God is the Creator. That is a given from the start. As such, He is necessarily outside of the created Universe. A good analogy would be a man with a fishbowl. He supplies the necessary bowl and water, and puts the fish in with castle and rocks, but is himself outside of the fishbowl. God made the Universe, and He put man in it. The purpose of this is manifest, that the beauties of the creation can be enjoyed by beings capable of appreciating it, who would in turn give glory to the Creator. The Universe was perfect, as God is perfect, and so was the first man created perfect. This is the standard in the Creators universe: Perfection. Rather than making man an automaton, the Creator made him with free will to choose to obey the perfect statutes of God on his own. Another good analogy is a loving parent, who allows their child to learn by experience the importance of obedience. After repeated warnings about a hot stove go unheeded, the parent may allow the child to touch the stoetop for a memorable lesson. Thus we have the well-known story of the fall of man in the garden, through his failure to obey the divine commandments, a failure at obedience. [Genesis 3] The entire story of the Bible from then forward, is the story of God's Plan for the reclamation of man from sin and its consequences: death and dying, which we are experiencing on a daily basis since the fall. All was not lost however, as the Lord God made a promise that the seed of the woman would one day bruise head of the serpent, Satan, who deceived her. [Gen 3:15] First however, man was given the opportunity to prove that he could live in accordance with God's perfect standards. He was given the law of Moses: 613 laws of obedience, the measure of a perfect man, the keeper of which would be deserving of everlasting life. The law proved too perfect for fallen man to keep, and thus he failed to gain the life benefits from keeping the whole law, as it is written: "For whosoeve shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." [James 2:10] Having proven himself incapable of overcoming the imperfections of the fall, and unworthy of continued existance in God's perfect universe, man was still condemned to death. "For the wages of sin is death." [Romans 6:23] Sin is simply anything less than perfection, thus it is written, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." [Romans 3:23] We are all more or less blemished from the fall. A perfect redeemer was needed if mankind was to be saved. Of course, God's divine foreknowledge had planned for just such an one to be provided "from the foundation of the world." [Rev 13:8] This appointed savior would be a man, "like unto his brethren." [Hebrews 2:17; Deut 18:15,18] This man would have to succeed where Adam had failed, in living a life of perfect obedience to his heavenly Creator, if we were to be saved. 2 This man woud have to obey all 613 laws of Moses in order to become a perfect Ransom sacrifice for Adam, as it is written: "As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." [I Cor 15:22] And as we know, this was fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. He lived as a man, he kept the law, and he died for Adam, "the just for the unjust." [I Peter 3:18] Thus, the story of man's reclamation from the grave is told, the full end of which is not yet finished, until the merit of Christ's shed blood is applied to the fallen race. Then we will all be raised to newness of life on a plane of perfection, coupled with the experiences with sin and death in the previous life to help us understand fully the importance of obedience to the Divine Creator and Hs statutes. This would have been unnecessary for robots, but glory to God, he made us free, and now we know to "choose life." [Deut 30:19] Thus in the future we will maintain our existance in the perfect Universe, as nothing of a dischordant nature will be permitted to mar it. What does this have to do with the trinity, you by now ask? Everything. The Divine Plan was that our redeemer would be of the same nature as we are - "flesh and blood" [Hebrews 2:14] - "lower than angels" [Hebrews 2:9] - "made of a woman" [Galatians 4:4] - "made flesh" [John 1:14] - "made in the likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man," [Phil 2:7,8] - ALL SO THAT HE COULD DIE FOR MAN. This was fulfilled in "the MAN [Greek: "Anthropus" = human] Christ Jesus." [I Timothy 2:5] Thus he was the "Ransom" for the race. "Ransom" means "Corresponding price" in the Greek language - a perfect man to die as a substitute for the perfect man who sinned. [Romans 5:15-19] Just as the Old Testament law demanded "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth..." [Exod 21:23-4; Deut 19:21], so "the MAN Christ Jesus" became that corresponding "ransom" price for Adam, and the entire race in him. The "trinity" says "no!" to all this. The "trinity," the doctrine of "One God in Three Persons," says that man could not keep the law, so God had to keep it for him. The "trinity" says that Jesus, while on earth, was "God Himself." What is the problem with that belief? Everything! First of all, if this were true, then what woud be the chance of any man or woman eve keeping the law at all, in this life OR the next, if only God could do it? Was the law given as the measure of a perfect God? NO! It was the standard for the perfect human being. If it were God who kept the law, then how is that a "corresponding price" for the man Adam? What then was the point in giving the law to men at all if it can only be kept by God Himself? Is the Divine Plan for us to become "God" so that we will never transgress the law? Hardly! 3 Secondly, and most importantly, the law requirement that sent Jesus to take Adam's place, the pre-requisite for our being saved at all, was that a death must take place. Thus it is written: "Without shedding of blood is no remission [of sin]." [Hebrews 9:22] Yet "death" is more than this. Isaiah 53 says of Christ, that he "poured out his SOUL unto death." Meaning that he did not merely die physically, but his soul died too. [Acts 2:27] If, as "trinity" claims, "Jesus was God," then ask yourself, "can God die?" The Scriptures are abundantly clear on this, that God is "immortal." [I Timothy 1:17; 6:16] In the language of the Bible, Greek, that word means "not liable to death" or "not subject to death" or "un-die-able" or simply "deathproof." God cannot die! And so if Jeus was God, not only is his keeping of the law a hollow accomplishment, but his death was a fictional charade! It would mean that God merely occupied the body of man, whom He abandoned at the moment of death, resulting in the concept Apostle John fought vehemently against when he said: "Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (he who denies that Jesus came as a MAN, by saying he was merely taken over by a spirit, in this case God,) this is that spirit of anti-christ." [I John 4:3] "Trinity" may say that "God did not merely occupy the body of Jesus, for God WAS Jesus." The result is the same. God cannot die, and so only a physical body would die, while God is eternal. No actual death, body AND SOUL would have occured. The law was for man to keep, not God. And after keeping it, the MAN Christ Jesus died "the just for the unjust," so that we might live again. If it was God on the cross, then no real death took place, and we are still in our sins, and under the curse. Jesus gave his flesh for the life of the world. [John 6:51] He "poured out his soul unto death" [Isaiah 53:12] meaning it was really Jesus' human soul or life that stopped on the cross, whereas "God" could never stop living, for if He did, the Universe itself would stop! He is the continuing Source of all life, without which, even for a moment, there would be no life, no creation at all. God is outside of our created universe. He is not subject ot death, nor would it be any accomplishment for Him to keep the law designed for a lower created being. This is why "trinity" is a Satanic doctrine. After Jesus' great success, the devil wants to diminish Jesus' accomplishment and insult Jesus, and what better way than to say, "So what, you kept the law. That's easy, since you were God." This insult is delivered not to Jesus directly, but through the masses who believe that our Heavenly Father is made up of three persons, making Jesus the same God as the Father. In the face of this great insult, as the popular Christian slogan of today says, "What Would Jesus Do?" He always answered Satans lies with a "thus it is written." The Scriptures are replete with references to Jesus as "the SON of God. [Matthew 27:54] Jesus himself said, "I live BECAUSE OF the Father." [John 6:57] This verse and many others prove that Jesus himself is a created being, indebted to the Father for his existance. See Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-16; Micah 5:2; Proverbs 8:22-30; and John 1:1-3. Jesus had a "beginning", and subsequently was used by his Creator as the agency in accomplishing all creation. God Himself is outside of our "fishbowl" of creation. He would not Himself die for man. But He could and did send a volunteer from among all His multitudinous heavenly host to do just that. [Psalm 40:7; Heb 10:7] 4 This volunteer was His "only begotten Son." [John 1:18] The Greek for this verse reads "only begotten God." THE God? NO! A created God who was "with" THE God." [Compare John 1:1-2 with I John 1:2-3, by the same writer.] More than One God then? NO! There is only one "Most High" God. [Deut 6:4] The Apostle Paul makes this a rule for us, saying it is manifest that "HE (the MOST High God) is excepted" from any and all comparison! [I Cor 15:27-28] While the word "God" is used of many people in the Bible, saints and judges, Moses and Pharaoah, Paul and Herod, and even idols, the Most High "God", our Heavenly Father is beyond compare! [Deut 4:35] While the man-made creed of the "trinity" claims that Jesus was "begotten NOT made," that is manifestly absurd, for "begotten" MEANS "made" or "born"! Just as the word "Son" means "offspring," while "Father" means "life-giver." The very words prove that Jesus was created. As a created being, he is thus a part of the created universe, or fishbowl, and is NOT outside of the created universe, as his Father, the "Most High" God, the Great First Cause our Creator necessarily must be. While "trinity" makes an embarrassing boast on Jesus' behalf that he is that God, Jesus never claimed for himself any more than being "the SON of God." [Matthew 16:13-17] And so, that is why the "trinity" is an insult to Jesus. That is how it destroys, at least in the mind, the Divine Plan's all encompassing doctrine of the Ransom. That is wy the "trinity" is not only an impossibility, but is a poisonous philosophy contrary to the Bible Plan of Redemption of mankind. It robs the Father of His sovereignty and uniquness as sole Creator and God alone. [II Kings 19:15] It robs Him of His Fatherhood. [Matt 6:9] It brings Him down from heaven, from where He is, outside His own Creation. It robs Jesus as well. It robs him of his sonship. It robs him of his role as our "High Priest." A priest ministers unto God. "For every High Priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God....so also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, 'thou art my son, to day have I begotten thee." [Hebrews 5:1-5] Thusly, it also robs him of the success of his mission on earth, which not only was the redemption of all mankind, but as stated in the verse, and repeated so many times by our Lord Jesus, his mission was to glorify HIS God. [John 21:19] And obviously, since Jesus HAS a God, [Matthew 27:46] he cannot also BE that God, and so it robs him of his role of servant, ever subject to his God. [I Cor 15:24-28] It also robs the Bible of its force, destroying the beautiful archetypical pictures of the Heavenly Father and His only-begotten Son, such as Pharaoah and Joseph, [Genesis 41:41-44] Abraham and Isaac, [Genesis 22:2] and Moses and Aaron, [Exodus 7:1] to name a few. And finally, it robs us, of our opportunity to know the True God, and the true Jesus whom He sent. [John 17:3] And most devastatingly, (if it were true), it would rob us of our opportunity to live again, by denying the "Ransom," putting an un-dieable "God on the cross" in place of our Redeemer, our REAL "corresponding price" for Adam, "the MAN Christ Jesus," who alone perfectly balanced the scales of Divine Justice, to the satisfaction of the Creator, his and ours. [John 20:17] by Octaman "as
star differeth from star in glory"
No glory can compare to that of the Father. Can you provide even one verse that says that the Father gave Jesus His SAME "glory"? He certainly glorified the Son, but never does it say it was the SAME glory as the Father! It seems that in order for your view to hold up it requires the sliding Jesus rule I see so often from discussing the nature of Jesus with trinitarians. He must continually "shift in and out" of roles depending on what verse is being looked at. Meanwhile, we have a logical, progressive divine Plan of the ages, with no need to use differing "angles" of looking at Jesus' role. He is, and always will be subject to the Father as God's own servant, albeit the mightiest one of all. He is not the "Most High YHWH", nor equal to Him. We need not change any words in the Scriptures to maintain the consistency of this view, but allow me to take liberties with the punctuation a bit, which is not inspired to begin with, but a relatively recent invention - in order to further prove that: "... to us there is One God: The Father. And, one "Lord Jesus Christ'". Apostle Paul Yours, Oc Reply True but not in the case of Jesus Take a look at this: John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Jesus had GLORY TOGETHER WITH FATHER. [A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23 Honor must be EQUAL what implies that the glory is same. The verse "One God, The Father and One Lord, Jesus Christ" I already explained in my previous post. If you take this verse as Father is One God only then you MUST NEVER call Father LORD simply cause according to the same verse ONLY JESUS is LORD. What about the rest of the points I made? Yours in Christ Jesus chris P.S. I also enjoy our converstation. Peace brother but Truth is Truth and I have to calmly but firmly disagree with many of your views. I hope you understand:) Perfect
Harmony
with Scripture
Dear IBH, Peace to you and yours. I was thinking of that verse (John 17:5) when I answered you last. It says "the glory I had" - since Jesus was a man when he spoke those words, he longed for a return to the same glory he had before, that of a spirit being. "The glory I had WITH THEE" - indicates Jesus' pre-human LOCATION, but does not have to mean that he had the Father's same LEVEL of glory that the Father possessed. "I have glorified, and will glorify again" answered the Father. And the Bible says that Jesus attained an even HIGHER level of glory that he had before! So if he had "the same" glory as the Father BEFORE when he was "with Thee", are we to accept that now, after being "highly exalted", that he has even GREATER glory than the Father now that he has returned to Him? Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say that he had the SAME level of glory as the Father did. There are angels that are "with" God "always behold(ing) the face of the Father." Surely they have "glory", but it could not be the same glory as the Father has in His Almighty Sovereignty. The "glory" is the honour of being WITH the Father in heaven. Jesus laid aside that glory to become a man. Hence he longed to have back what he had before - glorious fellowship with the Father, but not necessarily sameness of glory with the Father - but just the same level as he had. After all, it's HUMAN NATURE to love what we don't have! Did you ever have a great job where you wish you had that same authority again? If you talked to your old boss you might say, "I wish I had the clout (glory) I had when I was with you." That doesn't mean your authority outweighed that of the boss, but that he had given you a high position. So it is with Jesus. (John 5:23) We honour the Son even as we honour the Father because Jesus is His representative - His mouthpiece. That does not mean that his being is just as glorious as that of the Almighty, or that he IS that being, nor a part of Him. Finally, (I Cor 8:6) please allow me to take a further liberty with the verse. Let's forget the words "God" and "Lord" for the moment, and shorten it, as though Paul perhaps would be saying the exact same thing in brief: "To us there is One Father, and one Jesus Christ." I think that if you get hung up on the words "God" and "Lord" - which all should understand by reading their Bibles are words which apply to many other beings - ("there are gods many and lords MANY") - that you can miss the fact that Paul is introducing the TWO individuals to his audience - One "Father", and one "Christ" (HIS annointed one.) I have to calmly but firmly disagree with many of your views. I hope you understand:) Oh most certainly, Chris. They don't call it "the controversy of Zion" for nothing! But what I'd like to know is this: I see you explaining how your views can possibly be upheld by looking at things in a certain way, and you are pretty good at it. However I have not seen, nor do I understand, just what it is precisely about OUR viewpoint - that of Present Truth as we say - that you see as so wrong, and incongruous with the Bible? After all, you have your work cut out for you, because what we see is in perfect harmony with Scripture. Yours, Oc Let's analyze this. Hi, Peace. Ok. Let's forget about the previous verse I posted cause I agree that "with Thee" may mean 2 different things therefore it cannot be any proof by itself. Here is another verse I'd like you to take a close look at: Hbr 1:3 "Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; " It is very clear that Jesus IS the "brightness of Father's glory" meaning He has same Glory as Father. Please notice that Jesus is called Lord of Glory. 1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Besides, we know that Jesus will sit with Father on same Throne, right? Isn't this giving at least "part" of Father's glory to Son? Yours in Christ Jesus chris "at least part of the Father's glory" Yes. Dear Chris, Since you will give me that John 17:5 can support my view, and does not mean the "same" glory as that of the Father, I will give you that since Jesus will be seated on the right hand of Majesty, that he will have "at least part of the Father's glory." I'm sure we still stand apart as to Jesus' equality to the Father, as I see no one His equal. When it comes to Hebrews 1:3, Rotherham renders it as "Who being an eradiated brightness of His glory." The diaglott says "Who being an effulgence of His glory." Jesus is a mirror image of the Father's being in character. But Jesus is not a part of a composite, but a separate being. He was sent by God, but he is not the God who sent himself. (I don't mean to repeat myself too much. I think you know my position! There may be others looking in.) Yours, Oc |
Octaman
is a unique brand of
music; the first and only
artist in the world writing topical music from the True Bible
perspective concerning:
 The Greatest Preacher of the 19th AND 20th centuries (and NOT the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) |
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 ALL MANKIND!" "The beginning of the Kingdom of the Lord and His Presence ... and Babylon the Great is utterly overthrown" "Good fights evil and wrong with what's right" "Who's Side of the Battle will you be?" |
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