From efforts at promoting the Octaman myspace site, some interesting conversations ensue.  Here is a good back and forth regarding the false teaching of "eternal torment" - the belief that God is the author of the doctrines of torturing His creatures forever, and the alleged consciousness of the dead. 

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Oh Octaman. I wish, I wish, I wish it were not so. But if Hell is not real, then Jesus never said, "...if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9.47)
AND if Jesus never said that, the Bible is not true. AND, if the Bible be not true, we all be lost! Gropin inna dark mon! Give t'anks.


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Hello J,

Thank you for the response.  The King James translation of Mark 9:47 is a poor one at best.  The word "hell" should be translated "gehenna", and the word "fire" directly afterward is a spurious addition.  Jesus referred to the place outside the city walls where refuse was burned.  There was absolutely no thought of anything or anyone possibly remaining alive in "gehenna."  Nor were the worms immortal.  They resided on the hillside above gehenna to compliment the destructive work.  That which was thrown into "gehenna" was destroyed, and was not preserved in any sense.

I recommend an honest topical study of the word "hell" as it is used in every occurrence in Scripture.  The honest Bible student will admit that the word from which "hell" is translated from is "sheol" in the Hebrew Bible.  It is translated 31 times as "hell" and also 31 times as "grave."  Three times it is translated "pit."  In none of these useages is there any thought of conscious torment attached.  In fact, "grave" is a far better translation.  Those who have died are described in the Bible as "asleep".  "David slept with his fathers", etc.

In the New Testament, the word "hell" is translated from the word "hades" - equivalent to the Hebrew word "sheol."  Meanwhile, "gehenna" is an entirely different word with a different meaning altogether, describing yet another condition - that of second death.

My song included several direct quotes from Scripture.  Here is the link to the lyrics.  http://www.octaman.com/gianthail.html#Giant_H

Please take a closer look  You will find that every line of it is enlightened with the light of Scripture, (contrary to your imagining that I am groping in the dark.)  Indeed, honest Bible study is the key to understanding the mind and heart of God.  It requires us to be rid of God-dishonoring false doctrines and definitions.  Yahweh never authored the concept of any of his creatures being in eternal torment.  That doctrine is from the Adversary of God, Satan, devised to smear God's Holy character.  It is perpetuated by well meaning but uninformed would-be servants of God to this day.

For a complete examination of every single use of the word "hell" in the Bible, go here:  http://www.dawnbible.com/booklets/hell.htm

For a complete discussion of the topic, visit my forum here:  http://www.network54.com/forum/89087

Thanks again, and may Yah bless your studies.

Octaman

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Body:

Thanks, Octaman, for taking the time to reply, you are obviously passionate about this and I commend not only your devotion, but also your thorough research of the Scriptures & their background.

I did not mean to imply you were groping in the dark, what I said was that if the bible is not true, WE are all groping in the dark. We evidently both share a conviction that the Bible is God's Word.

You don't mind lengthy answers, so I'll give you a lengthy reply...

Jesus referred to Hell/ Hades as a place of torment when He told us the account of a poor man named Lazarus and a rich man who lived well with no regard for God or the poor.

"Luke 16.22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.
24 He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.'
27 He said, 'Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house--
28 for I have five brothers--that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.'
29 Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.'

I'm sure you are familiar with this text, but hear me out for a moment. This cannot be a parable for a number of reasons:

(1) Parables were always stories of things common to us to help us understand things spiritual. Seed = the Word, Lost sheep = man without God...

(2) Jesus would never use a false doctrine of Satan to illustrate a point. Would you?

(3) Jesus describes Hades/Hell/Grave as a place of torment, fire, thirst, a state of existence, and unpassable (you may want to pass from there but you cannot.

If the grave is annihilation, then why is it better to live life maimed, or blinded than go to Hades, where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched?

Hell/Hades is horrible. I hate the thought of it. I wish I could believe something else, but I cannot deny the scriptures. It is the Bible I draw truth from, not the pulpit, that is merely complimnetary. I cannot pick and choose what I like in the Bible. It takes all the courage I can muster to trust what the Word says about it. Part of me would love to believe what you do, but the Truth arrests me.

Bless ya. Yah be praised!

J

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Dear J,

Peace to you in the name of our Redeemer.

I am impressed with you because of your answer.  Often these debates are accompanied by wrangling and insults, and I have an idea that you understand that from experience.  It seems you are already familiar with the position that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, as you have answered that argument preemptively.

While for me this is very brief, I apologize for the length of it.  I don't wish to presume upon your time by sending message after message that somehow obligates you to read and respond to everything I say.  That would not be polite.  Meanwhile please understand that I am also willing to discuss this in greater depth, whether here, by email, message board format, or even by phone or in person.

I will refer you to Luke 15:3 which clearly shows that Jesus was using parables to the end of chapter 16.  Also please note the following verses that also prove he spoke with a parable:

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them::

Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Below this message is a very brief synopsis of the parable of Dives and Lazarus which explains my position.  You may read it if you wish.  

As to your thoughts regarding Christ's words about going through life maimed rather than go to "hades" - again that is incorrect.  He referred not to hades, but to "gehenna" - a different Greek word with an entirely different meaning describing yet another condition - that of second death, from which there is no recovery possible.  What he was explaining was that it would be better to detach ourselves from our sins in this life rather than to reach that deplorable condition and have no next life at all.

You say rightly that one cannot pick and choose which verses to accept.  I would go further and say one must harmonize each and every passage of Scripture, one with another, and not leave any aside.  

You say that you would like to accept what I am saying, but the Truth arrests you.  I would suggest a different thought, that through topical Bible study the Truth will not arrest you - rather it will set you free from the creeds and traditions of fallen men and angels, revealing God's Divine Plan of Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power - the four main attributes of God's Holy character.

Every doctrine must square with those attributes, or it is not of God.  Ask yourself, what is accomplished through the conscious torment of any of God's creatures for all eternity?  Is it just?  Is it loving?  Is it wise?  What does it say of God's power?  That He could not find a better solution than an eternal torment of misery for countless billions who, through family or geography or circumstances, simply never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel?  

Is that what the "Gospel" is?  Good tidings of great joy that shall be to ALL the people?  (Luke 2:10)

All I ask is that you think about it, AND that God may bless you and yours eternally in the Kingdom of the Son of His love.

Yours in Truth,

Octaman

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The Jewish nation was Dives, the Rich man. His table, his spiritual food, the promises of God, was abundantly supplied; his raiment, fine linen, represented justification, effected through the typical Atonement-day sacrifices. His purple robe represented, symbolically, the fact that he was identified with God's Kingdom, purple being a symbol of royalty. Lazarus represented the hopelessness of the sinners and Gentiles, who hungered for a share in the promises to Abraham, but who got only "crumbs" until Israel's rejection.--Matthew 23:38.

The Poor man's sores represented a sin-sick condition; the dogs which licked them represented the sympathy of Gentile "dogs." This was illustrated in the Syrophenician woman whose daughter Jesus healed. She was not a Jewess, and therefore Jesus at first refused to aid her, saying, "It is not proper to take the children's bread and give it to dogs." But she pleaded: "Yes, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from the children's table." Jesus gave her the crumb.

The Rich man, the Jewish nation, died to his great blessings. Nationally he fell asleep in Hades, and awaits reawakening. But personally the Jews passed into a great time of trouble, symbolically represented as fire, for eighteen centuries.

Lazarus also died to his condition of disfavor, and found himself in "Abraham's bosom"--a child of Abraham. Thus the Gentiles have become Abraham's Seed, and heirs of the Spiritual part of the Abrahamic Promise.--Galatians 3:29.

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There are many more details that could be brought forth that are very convincing, which you can choose to read if you like - here - http://www.biblestudents.net/studies/doctrine/biblehell.htm

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Body:

Again, you compliment me with taking the time to reply, at length.

We have the same Father, that is evident.

I can see how you interpret the story of the rich man and Lazarus (RM&L) as of Israel, Gentiles, & 20 centuries of the diaspora. Jesus did give parables that refered to those things.

I am not convinced, however, that the story in question could be numbered with the parables for the points I mentioned before. If you would like to consider them and respond to them specifically, I would be interested in what you have to say. Especially the issue of using a "ficticious" and as you believe "blasphemous" concept of torment after death to illustrate His point.

With reference to Matt 14 & Mar 4, I think there are 2 facts that counter the idea that all Jesus ever spoke were parables: (1) Both Matt 14 & Mark 4 refer to the exact same time & circumstance Jesus was in, so it's conceivable that specifically, Jesus only response to the multitudes that day was in parables - fulfilling another prophecy. So only generally, did He employ parables, not exclusively. (2) We know of course that on many ocasions He spoke to the disciples, strangers, the Jews, religious leaders, and groups directly and literally.

I will acknowledge that Luke 13-16 is predominantly parables, but the pretext to the Story of RM & L, Jesus responded to the Pharisee's derision directly, not in a parable, then He proceeds with the account of the RM&L.

I have been a believer for many years and know that we all have prejudices and blidspots to things. I know this first hand, as I have caught myself, (or rather the Holy Spirit has) having bias and error in my life due to preconceptions, or misconceptions.

I consider this most serious subject and I am aware that there are factors in my life that may affect my ability to discern all things correctly: A life lived with a certain belief is not easy to reliquish; my life immersed in a church that believes as I do, the what-if factor when one considers challenging one's core beliefs...

How can we begin to know fully unless we challenge our prejudices, yeah?

So what might be yours, Octaman?

Parable or Not is the decisive issue here. Right or wrong falls on this whole issue, wouldn't you agree?

Regards,

J
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Hi J,

Shalom.

Once again I appreciate your attitude.  Most who disagree with me on this would have tossed me in hades with the rich man by now.  Not so you.  And I appreciate your music.  I'm a fan of Bill Withers too.

First I will say that even if we are established in the faith, it's always possible to learn more.  Remember Apollos of Acts 18.  He was eloquent, wise in the Scriptures, and spoke with power and spirit - until a brother and a sister took him aside and taught him the Word "more perfectly." 

I learn more all the time, and was blessed in searching for info to share with you on your question.  I have many pages I could give you, but this one portion may be of particular interest, as it deals with the one important issue, as you said:
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Parable or Not is the decisive issue here. Right or wrong falls on this whole issue, wouldn't you agree?



------the scholars opinions-------

Jesus spoke it to the multitude, as represented in the
envious, hypocritical and self-righteous Pharisees,
their leaders, "and without a parable spake he not
unto them"� (Matt. 13: 34, 35; Luke 8: 10). Thus the
Bible itself testifies that this is a parable, no matter
what some Bible scholars might argue against this
fact. Furthermore, we saw that especially for twelve
potent reasons the parable cannot consistently and
logically be interpreted literally, and that to do so
leads into most absurd conclusions. It should be kept
in mind also that the word parable as a noun is
defined as "a fictitious narrative,"� and as a verb is
defined "to represent by fiction or fable."�

It is a mistake to think that recognized Bible
scholars do not hold that the story of the rich man
and Lazarus is a parable. Let us note some prominent
ones:

Dr. Robert Young, LL.D, a Presbyterian, in his
"Analytical Concordance to the Bible,"� a work
endorsed by scholars in general, states that the word
"Lazarus"� is "a symbolic name in one the parables,"�
and he refers to Luke 16.

Dr. James Strong, S.T.D., LL.D., a Methodist, in his
"Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,"� which is
equally well endorsed by Bible scholars in general,
states in his Greek dictionary section, under the word
"Lazaros"� (No, 2976), that it is "the name of two Isr.
(one imaginary)."� The imaginary Lazarus was
therefore a parabolic man.

Various other lexicons testify likewise. For
example, Dr. J. H. Thayer, D.D., Litt. D., a Harvard
383
Bible Standard Question Book (1920"�1999)
University Professor, in his "Greek-English Lexicon of
the New Testament,"� states under the Greek word
"Lazaros"� (p. 367), not only "the inhabitant of
Bethany,"� but also "an imaginary person, extremely
poor and wretched: Luke 16: 20, 23-25."�

Dr. G. Abbott-Smith, D.D., D.C.L., Principle of the
Montreal Diocesan Theological College and Professor
of Hellenistic Literature in McGill University, in his
"Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament,"� states
(p. 263) that the Lazarus of Luke 16: 20, 23-25 is
"the beggar in the parable."�

Dr. Marvin R. Vincent, D.D., Baldwin Professor of
Sacred Literature in Union Theological Seminary, New
York, in his "Word Studies in the New Testament,"� p.
396, speaks of "The Parable of Dives and Lazarus"�;
and on p. 398 he speaks of "the deep impression this
parable has made on the mind of Christendom."�

Dr. Orville J. Nave, A.M., D.D., LL.D., in his
"Topical Bible,"� a standard work accepted by Bible
scholars in general, includes under "Jesus, the Christ,
Parables of"� (p. 708) the "Rich man and Lazarus,
Luke 16: 19-31."� And in his "Study Bible"� (published
by Moody Press, Chicago), on p. 1162, under
"Parables, of Jesus,"� he lists the parable of "Rich man
and Lazarus."�

A number of Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias
testify similarly. One of the best known and generally
accepted by Christians of all denominations is
M"â„¢Clintock and Strong"â„¢s Cyclopedia. In Vol. V, page
301, in addition to Lazarus, "an inhabitant of
Bethany,"� mention is made of Lazarus, "a beggar
named in the parable of Dives (Luke 16: 20-25) . . .
the only instance of a proper name in a parable."� It is
also there stated that "he is an imaginary
representative . . . "; and reference is made, among
others, to "Walker, Parable of Lazarus (Lond. 1850)."�
And in Vol. 7, p. 647, "The rich man and Lazarus"� is
listed as one of Jesus"â„¢ parables.

In Scribner"™s "Dictionary of the Bible,"� Vol. 3, p.
88, under "Lazarus and Dives,"� it is stated that "in
this parable alone is a name given to any of the
persons introduced,"� and several times in the context
it is referred to as a parable. Many scholars have
contributed to this able work.
384
Bible Standard Question Book (1920"�1999)
The same may be said of Scribner"â„¢s "Dictionary of
Christ and the Gospels,"� where (Vol. 2, p. 18)
reference is made to "Lazarus the beggar, who, in our
Lord"â„¢s parable (Luke 16: 19-31), lay, a mass of
loathsome sores, at the gateway of the rich man."�
Here again the context repeatedly speaks of this as a
parable.

Among other authoritative Bible Dictionaries that
refer to the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke
16: 19-31) as a parable, might be mentioned Smith"â„¢s
Dictionary of the Bible (p. 1617); the Standard Bible
Dictionary by Jecobus, Nourse and Zenos (p. 511);
the Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, by Davis (p.
353); The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, by Piercy (p.
468); The Temple Bible Dictionary, by Ewing and
Thomson (p. 383); Hastings"â„¢ Dictionary of the Bible
(p. 538); Unger"â„¢s Bible Dictionary (p. 651; published
by Moody Bible Institute); and many others.

And additional encyclopedias that identify the story
of the rich man and Lazarus as a parable (see under
"Lazarus"�) are Encyclopedia Britannica, The
Americana, The Popular and Critical Bible
Encyclopedia and Scriptural Dictionary, The
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, The
People"â„¢s Bible Encyclopedia, Fausset"â„¢s Bible
Cyclopedia, and many others. Many Bible
commentaries also treat of the story of the rich man
and Lazarus as being a parable.

We see from the above that not only the Bible
itself, but also able Bible scholars in general, testify
that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a
parable. And the context shows that Jesus gave it to
illustrate to His hearers, the envious, self-righteous
Pharisees (Luke 19: 14), some very important and
timely features of Bible truth, namely, the imminent
acceptance of Gentiles into God"â„¢s special favor in the
heavenly kingdom offer of the opening Gospel
dispensation, and the casting off of themselves and
the rest of the Jewish nation from God's special favor
(Matt. 8: 11, 12; 21: 43), in the closing of the Jewish
Age. '67-38

-------------------

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Thanks Octaman,

OK, scholars quoted, I am cautious to question learned men. Yet I can't help read the RM&L story without thinking, if hell is an abominable heresy of Satan, why would Jesus use it as a parable? I sure wouldn't! And isn't a parable an illustration from life to reveal something spritual?

I think we have a legion of scholars on either side of the debate, but even Jesus said to Nicodemus (of the Sanhedrin), "You are a teacher of Israel and you do not know these things..." Unless a "scholar" is borna again, the Lord says, he cannot see the kingdom!

I don't want to appear to arrogant, I just want to stify my own mind.

Bless ya,

J:
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Hi J,

Peace!~

Again I appreciate your attitude on the matter.  I will try to keep it short and to the point, but I will continue to make points as long as you are not unwilling to hear them.

From what I have learned through a lot of study on this issue, "Dives and Lazarus" was a well known parable in Jesus' day.  He skillfully made a play on words, altering it for the benefit of the Pharisees who were his intended target. 

Keep in mind the very definition of the word "parable" means "a ficticious story."

Ask yourself, if it be a literal story, why is it that each and every portion of this passage has an exact match regarding the history of the Jews and Gentiles when viewed as a parable?

Ask yourself:  How would a fingertip of water last amidst flames?  And who would be relieved by a fingertip of water? 

Ask again:  Who in their right mind would want to pass from heaven to the flames of hades across the "great gulf fixed"? 

Luke 16:26  "so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot" (???)

Ask yourself:  Is being rich a sin worthy of torture?  God Himself is rich.  So was Abraham.

Is being poor and receiving crumbs from the rich a cause for a heavenly reward?  Then we should all become poor beggars and lie at a rich man's gate and let dogs lick our sores.  But nothing bad is said about the rich man, and nothing good about Lazarus...

There are many more absurd conclusions that must be drawn as when this is viewed literally. 

Most of all, it goes against Bible teachings that "the wages of sin is death" (not torment) [Rom 6:23], that the dead shall rise again, (Acts 24:15), that "the dead know not anything" [Ecc. 9:5] and that no one had yet ascended into heaven as Jesus Himself taught. [John 3:13] 

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but the Son of man which is in heaven."

Yours in Truth,

Octaman
http://www.octaman.com

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Mar 15, 2008 6:53 AM

 

Body:

Mar 22, 2008 1:04 PM

Hello Mark, (??? oops - apology sent)

Thanks for your patience, I have a lot of projects but I haven't forgotten you. I'll answer your specific questions best I can. I am moved to approach you with a different angle of perspective, which I will likely close this message with.

You are wise to want to be like the noble Bereans and to receive your doctrine only from the Word of God. That is also my philosophy. As such, I have had to divorce myself from many false teachings from nominal Christendom - mainline churchianity. You have a good mind, and you seem to be an advanced student of the Word, with a calm demeanor. That is all to both our advantages. You also grasp the concept of what I call "dual fulfillment" of prophecy. Very good. I might even see "tri-fulfillment" on occasion, but that's another topic.

I will give you points for answering well that a loved one might wish to cross from paradise into the burning flames, (which the Talmud says are 60 times hotter than normal flames. I don't follow the Talmud.) But see if you can follow this logic. Those who make it to paradise are those who have become one with Christ, as He said throughout John 17, that they will have the one mind with Christ and His Father. If it is the will of God and Christ that those outside of grace are to be tormented, day and night, in searing fire for all eternity, and Their judgment is righteous and just - then those in Christ who are in paradise must also be of the same mind, agreeing that those in torment truly belong there. Would they pity them and want to relieve their pain any more than the Father, who is perfect in love? And if the Son and the Father wanted to "cross over" to those in flames, certainly they could...

Nay, the doctrine of eternal torment is flatly rejected on the surface, as it is completely incongruous with the Holy character of the Heavenly Father. It is completely out of harmony with Scripture, which plainly says that "the wages of sin is death" - not torment! Romans 6:23 If the wages of sin was torment for all eternity, then Jesus would have had to pay that price for the Ransom of all mankind - and therein lies the crux of the matter - eternal torment is out of harmony with the doctrine of the Ransom. Jesus tasted death for every man. I Tim 2:5,6 - I John 2:2 - Hebrews 2:9

Concerning Elijah. Many mistakenly believe that when he was taken away in a fiery chariot, he left the earth. However it is evident from Scripture that this is not so, as we have a letter from Elijah that was written after that occurred. Jehoram “received a letter from the prophet Elijah..."� (II Chronicles 21:12). How could he receive a letter from Elijah if Elijah had been taken into Paradise?

What the Apostles saw at the Mount of Transfiguration was called "a vision" - not a reality. They misunderstood what they saw, and God told them so - "This is my Son, hear Him." He did not say that this is my Son, actually standing with Elijah and Moses. They both stood as a symbol for something specific that the disciples were supposed to learn, a topic for another time. But Jesus said they had seen "a vision" (Matt 17:9) - and visions are not realities, just as a parable is not literal.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13.

Yes, that is very plain. Yet there are many passages that agree with this statement from our Lord, and which contradict the philosophy that the dead go strait to heaven or an eternal hell. Righteous Jacob for instance said "I will go down into Sheol [hell/grave] unto my son mourning." Genesis 37:35. Why did he not expect to go to heaven? Why did he expect to go to a place of eternal torture? Why would his precious son be there?

Righteous Job also said "Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol [hell/grave]." That indicates he expected to return.

Remember in Revelation 20:13 death and hell are to be destroyed. First they deliver up the dead that are in them. This verse is not in harmony with Christendom's own false teaching that hell is an "eternal" torment. Hell has an end - shown clearly in the next verse which also defines "lake of fire" for us plainly. It is "the second death" - eternal destruction - the REAL punishment of the willfully wicked.

"The Lord preserveth all who love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy." Psalm 145:20. There is no thought of preservation whatsoever to be found in the word "destroy." It is the opposite of preserve.

"There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave [Sheol - hell], whither thou goest." Ecc, 9:10

There are many such examples of plain Scripture that refute the false doctrine of eternal torment of the conscious dead.

Your two specific questions were:

1. If the doctrine of Hell is an abhorrent heresy from the enemy, why would Jesus use it as a parable?

Yeshua (Jesus) was using a well-known parable of the day, handed down from generations, in order to mock the Pharisees. And by using parables it was His stated intention to hide the Truth. Matthew chapter 13 clearly shows that He hid the Truth in parables so that they would hear and NOT understand, otherwise they might be converted! Now the teaching of nominal Christianity is that Jesus wants everyone converted, but is that what He says? Not at all. And if it IS His plan - that the unconverted, unregenerate world are to be tormented forever - would that not make Him very unjust to hide the truth from them intentionally?

He used parables so that they would NOT understand. He said even the righteous would not understand! Should the "righteous" as He Himself describes them deserve eternal torment in "hell fire"? [Matt 13:10-17] And so we need to find the Truth - and to do that we must discard doctrinal misunderstandings that do not harmonize with Scripture and sound reason.

LAZARUS

Let's talk about the real Lazarus. In John 11 we see Jesus' friend has died. "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth." That's what He said. Not, "Lazarus is in paradise with Abraham" or "in torments with the rich man." And throughout the entire Bible, death is described as sleep. "I go that I may awake him out of sleep." "Jesus spake of his death... then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead." It can't get any more plain that that. I would not presume to disagree with the Lord of glory on this.

What did Jesus and Martha talk about? "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Did Jesus correct Mary, and say "no sister, he is in heaven - or hades"? Mary described exactly what Jesus spoke of when he said "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth." John 5:28

And when Lazarus finally did come forth, did he speak of his time in Abraham's bosom? Or with the rich man in torments? Of course not. That is not the Bible teaching. Remember, it is Satan himself who said "ye shall NOT surely die." [Gen 3:14] The Adversary is the author of the doctrine that there is no death, but instead there is only an instantaneous translation into either eternal bliss or eternal torment.

2. (Rev 20:10 NIV) "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Assuming you acknowledge that they will be tormented (basanizo), continually (day & night), forever (& ever); is it possible that the sons of men could meet the same end?

BASANIZO

I took the following summary of my viewpoint from a web site owned by a Bible student friend of mine, which I highly recommend to anyone wanting to know the Truth about hell.

http://reslight. net/biblehellrevelation. html

"Basanizo, as used in Revelation 20:10, is the verb form of basanos, literally "touchstoned" or "used as a touchstone." A touchstone is defined as: "1. A fine-grained dark stone formerly used to test the fines of gold and silver by the color of the streak made on the stone. 2. A criterion or standard by which the qualities of something are tested." (Funk & Wagnalls) Thus the beast, false prophet and Satan the Devil, as symbols, will be used as a touchstone for all eternity, a striking tool by which to contrast Yahweh's righteous kingdom as opposed to the kingdoms of this present evil world. All creation will look upon the works of the beast, false prophet and the serpent as a reminder never to return to such an arrangement again."

TORTURE IS WRONG

In conclusion let me point out that one of the great current political controversies here in the United States is over the issue of torture. Everyone will confess that torture is wrong, and those who would allow it do so only as a last resort in an emergency. Tyrants such as Saddam Hussein are universally hated and despised because of their use of torture among other things. Virtually anyone would say that torture is a sadistic form of punishment, and we condemn governments who condone it. Everyone would say it would be a more wonderful world if torture were for all time a thing of the past.

Do those who torture others here on earth, such as Saddam Hussein, more or less resemble the Heavenly Father?

What do we think of someone who tortures a dog? Is that a just punishment for anything a dog might do?

Would you eat a crab or a lobster, if in order to cook it you had to torture it for a full 30 minutes? How about 10 minutes?

Do the Scriptures teach "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth and life for a life"? Or do they teach "torture for being born in China"?

Are not God's ways higher than man's ways? Is there any conceivable way that torture is a higher ideal of love, justice and mercy than we humans know?

Does God Almighty, a God who is love [I Jhn 4:16] - who has a greater love by far than all of His earthly children can have, does that God have a plan created from the beginning whereby well over 90% of all the billions of His own children He ever brought into being are to be tortured and tormented day and night in untold misery for ever and ever - many simply because of geography and heredity, or even because His own son intentionally hid the Truth from them by the use of parables?

Would a God who says "love your enemies" turn around and torture His?

I leave it up to you to decide.

"GOD IS LIGHT - and in Him there is no darkness at all." I John 1:5

Yours in Truth

Octaman


P.S. I can't recommend highly enough what is the best and perhaps only topical study of the Scriptures in the world. Read it all for free here:

http://www. mostholyfaith. com/bible/volumes/A01. asp

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Round 6

Body:

G'day Octaman,

Thank you again for your studios reply.

I have read and studied your words and found them most challenging.

For instance, Elijah's letter to Jehoram is curious. It does clearly appear he was taken up into heaven (shamayim), during Jehoshaphat's time. Jehoram's letter presumably arrived several years after his fathers death.
* Did Elijah just have an elaborate retirement send of? Was he merely taken up into the heavens (air) or to Heaven, (the abode of Yahwey)? Or was the letter written prophetically prior to his departure? (Long shot) I don't know, so I don't presume to know much more about the Mt of Transfiguration either, except that whenever someone in the bible had a vision, the bible says they had a vision. So the first precedent is to believe what it says.

I appreciate logic and mystery and the paradox of their unhappy relationship. I do find it difficult to comprehend or accept eternal damnation. There are difficult questions in my mind and it does seem to have contradictions to me as an individual. It's concept is unfathomably horrible. The more you try to imagine it, the worse it gets. I am not one to trivialise doctrine, especially of this nature. Nothing could be more important than knowing the truth about this. But I am also not unaware of my desire to turn away. The church believes in Hell, but rarely mentions it; this is puzzling. It is treated as an inconvenient reality and perhaps a hinderance to church growth.

The problem with me is I really have to be convinced, or unconvinced to many decimal points.

You have given me reason to explore some of those elements but I have a science mind too. Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was claiming was TRUE; the scientist examines a theory to see if it is FALSE. Both are important processes.

However, they both must be presided over by the Word, I'm sure you'd agree. "My ways are not your ways." directly reminds us that we have a strong capacity to get it wrong when it comes to God's ways. That we see thru a glass darkly; that our perception is impaired as a bathroom widow distorts light, even in understanding ourselves. Your passionate displeasure for the doctrine of Hell could blind you as much as my 20 something years of believing it.

So we must assume nothing in approaching this subject. Indeed, subjectiveness is notoriously inteferential. I cannot lay claim to my proud ancestors religion as much as you cannot lay claim to your sympathetic compassion. Though they may be right; they may be wrong too.

No. On the whole counsel of the Word of Yahwey it must rest.

We understand that the ancient languages, as do ours, employ the base meaning of words differently, so we can't merely rely on a lexicon. Basanizo, is a typical example of this. You are correct, it's origin is touchstone (basanos), but it's use in sentances stretches far more. If you examine it's use in the NT, it is commonly employed to descibe sickness, demon possession, arduous rowing, Lot's anguish of soul in S&G, the Locust sting of Revelations, labour pain, etc. You get the idea.

Torture? Torment? - Yes it appears to be translated correctly. Especially consider that in the so called parable of Lazarus & Dives, Dives was in Hades, in fire, "in torments"�, (basanos), and describes his torment.

Unfortunately, a lineal approach to this subject is not always possible due to the semantics of the Bible. We can't say that Sheol & Hades are simply a hole in the ground or that "sleeping" is a nap. Paul said to be absent from the body, one can be present with the Lord. From one plane we sleep, from the other we are in His presence. From our perspective, Lazarus was dead; from Jesus' perspective of faith (we are) asleep to be wakened. The reference is to the body's state.

A doctrine must be tested by context, congruity to the whole bible, be found in the Gospels, taught in the letters, refrenced to in the OT.

Again, I agree with you in your point about Him. That He is merciful, not willing that anyone should perish. But perhaps, indeed, fashioned in the image of God, we are immortals? May be the same reason we can live forever, means we can die forever? And yet, if the punishment should fit crime so the scales of justice may be balanced, an eternity of torture seems to grossly outweigh 70 years of unbelief; or even 17 years.

This is my dilemma Octaman. “Would a God who says love your enemies, turn around and torture His?"Â� My heart and mind agree, but I cannot reconcile it with what I read in the bible. Which am I to trust? I can"t escape this weight: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."Â�  It says what it says. Torment. Forever & ever.

Grace upon you,

J

Mar 31, 2008 12:11 PM

Dear J,

Peace to you again and always.

Thank you for the response.  I agree with you when you say that on the Word of Yah it must rest.  I like the fact that you have a scientific mind.  Indeed Bible Science is the most under appreciated of all the sciences, yet it is the most important.  I approach it the same way.  It is the only way to arrive at the Truth on any topic.  So when you say

"Your passionate displeasure for the doctrine of Hell could blind you as much as my 20 something years of believing it."

...I would want you to know that my opposition to this doctrine is not a personal preference.  We would agree we can take no such liberty with God's Holy Bible and pick and choose what we would like to believe.  My adamant rejection of this doctrine is because the Bible itelf demands it.  It is not found in Scripture, save for the symbolic passages under discussion.  Apostle Paul does not mention it.  One would think if this were so vital to the Christian faith then he would have somewhere uttered a word about it.  He did not.  The Old Testament is also devoid of it. 

Eternal torment is a heathen doctrine brought over from ancient Bablyon during the Jewish captivity.  Jesus chided the Pharisees for accepting it with the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, turning that well-known story around on them to predict their future!  Every single part of the parable has an exact match with history as we know it.  But literally, the passage in nonsensical and does not square with the rest of the Bible.  Later I will show you a chart I am making that explains this further.

Everything in Revelation is symbolic.  Yes, basanizo is indeed painful!  Mankind in the Millennial Kingdom will be doing some arduous rowing!  (Isaiah 65:20)  Remember that the book of Revelation, beyond all others, is a book of symbols!  Are we to look for literal dragons and frogs?   If the beast is not a literal beast, and the false prophet is not a literal man, but are indeed symbols for something else, then SO MUST THE TORMENT BE SYMBOLIC.  And indeed it is.  

The Beast and False Prophet stand for false religious systems.  A false system cannot experience torment, but the people can be sickened by the memory of such.  We know that in the Kingdom of God a pure language will be given to the people, and a pure form of Government.  The old false system will be lamented. 

Zephaniah 3:8 -9 shows us plainy that the fire is symbolic, as well as the earth!  First the symbolic fire devours the earth [society] and then the people are still there! They begin to serve God with one consent, as we read:

Zep 3:8       Therefore wait ye for me, saith Jehovah, until the day that I rise up to the prey; for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger; for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Zep 3:9       For then will I turn to the peoples of a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of Jehovah, to serve him with one consent.

Pauls words in 2Cor. 5:8 are also higly symbolic!  "At home in the body" means to feel contented with present conditions--ourselves and our surroundings.  "Absent from the Lord" means not living near to Him, not "walking with God" as we should.  Yet many hang their hat on this passage to claim something that the Bible refutes - the conscious state of the dead. 

J, you did not comment on most of the passages that I submitted to you that prove that the dead know nothing, and that they are asleep, as Jesus plainly stated about His friend Lazarus.  The concept that the soul lives on after death is not Biblical.  It is a heathen doctrine, passed down from generations.  Satan is the author of it.  It was he who said "thou shalt not surely die." Rev. 3:14

Remember we're dealing with the ancient Greek!  "For ever and ever" is the Greek, "aionion", i.e., lasting. It is a poor translation because the word applies to indeterminate periods of time - and does not mean "forever"!  It will continue as long as these systems last, until they are utterly consumed. 

Yes, the devil will be tormented day and night.  But it's the people who are tormented with the rememberance of him and the false systems they labored under!  Those systems will continue to torment the people until the time these systems are utterly consumed and done away with.  They will lament the former world that Satan ruled which they served under.  They will repent of it daily, and it will never be forgotten.  But the Bible says that the devil will be destroyed!

"...that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb.2:14 KJV)

"...I will destroy you, O covering cherub." (Ezk.28:16 KJV).

"...I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you." (Ezk. 28:17-19)

No J, humans are not immortal!  Only Jesus and His Father are immortal, as the Bible clearly says of Jesus:

"...the King of kings and Lord of lords; the only One who has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach to; whom no man has seen, nor can see."  (1.Tim.6:13-16)

This verse also proves again  "no one hath ascended into heaven" as Jesus Himself said in John 3:13.

Also I have shown clearly that the righteous do not go to heaven!  Neither Jacob, nor Job, nor any of the patriarchs are there!  Not even the righteous David, King of Israel after God's own heart, from whom Jesus descended!

Act 2:34       "For David is not ascended into the heavens."

Yes J, the Scriptures are truly our only source of Truth on any Bible topic, and the Word of God is the final arbiter! 

I urge you to read the following link where every single passage where the topic is mentioned in the Bible is studied, and it will be proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the God of Love who created the Universe has a far better Plan of the Ages for His children than the one foisted on us by the devil who's only goal is to discredit God in the eyes of mankind.  There is no more God-dishonoring lie than that of eternal torment.  I rest my case, howerver I will happily answer more questions or comments from you.  Thanks again for your agreeable nature during our exchange.  It speaks volumes as to your character. 

http://dawnbible.com/booklets/hell.htm

Yours in Truth,

Octaman